The crossing.

There has been serious disruption outside of Christ Church, Erith, and around the junction of Fraser Road, Bexley Road, Bronze Age Way and Queen's Road. As you can see from the photos above, the traffic lights on the bridge across the railway are not working, after a car went out of control. mounted the pavement, and collided with the traffic light control unit, putting it out of commission. As a result of this, the pedestrian crossing has been closed. This has been having a serious impact on commuters travelling to and from Erith Station. The junction, along with the adjacent Fish Roundabout is the second busiest in the whole of the London Borough of Bexley; the only busier location is the roundabout adjacent to the A2 by Hall Place. One would have thought that the authorities would have been speedy in repairing the accident damage, on such a high profile and heavily trafficked site, but the reality could not be very much further from the truth. I received the following Email from a concerned local resident who chooses to remain anonymous:- "I don’t know if you’re aware that the pedestrian traffic lights near the Fish roundabout have been out of order for several days now, following an accident. By dint of several emails to Bexley and TFL I’ve been given the following update from an official in Bexley’s Engineering Services which your readers might be interested in. I’m sure many locals have found it almost impossible to cross there in recent days without risking life or limb and currently there seems little or no work going on there, though usefully there’s a sign saying Crossing Not In Use (!) I was personally subjected to a volley of abuse last weekend by a bus driver who objected to stopping behind a car which had made way for me, and it must be chaotic there during peak commuter times.  As you can see, Bexley told me it was TFL’s responsibility whilst TFL told me the opposite, hence the opening sentence. Hopefully by the time the next Maggot Sandwich goes out, the situation might have resolved itself, though it seems unlikely at the moment". A council official had responded to my correspondent with the following:- "I can assure you that this matter is for Transport for London to resolve, despite what their customer services have advised below. I have contacted them direct and found that the delay to being re-instated is due to the fact that the collision damaged the controller to the crossing rather than just one of the signal poles.  Therefore they have had to source replacement equipment for it as it an older style system; upgrading to the new style system is not a simple matter of putting in the new unit, but would require a full recabling and replacement of all the signal heads etc.  I understand the replacement equipment has nearly all been installed now and the final safety and operation checks will be needed prior to actual return to use. They were unable to provide a date for this to be done, but aware it is required urgently due to limited alternative routes and our pressing for completion. Hopefully, it will be resolved very soon". After some research, I have come to understand that remedial work on the traffic lights and their controller unit is now scheduled to begin next week - ten days since the traffic lights were put out of commission. The fact that no temporary traffic lights or other provision for the hundreds of local commuters and other pedestrians on what is the second busiest junction in the whole of the borough has been made really speaks loudly as to how poorly the authorities regard Erith residents. What do you think? Email me at hugh.neal@gmail.com. 

Last week I mentioned that as well as the connection between Clint Eastwood and Plumstead, there was a further connection to an Oscar winning performer. I had a couple of readers contact me with suggestions as to who the mystery person could be - and the names quoted were fascinating, but incorrect; one of the actors mentioned will be featured in a future Maggot Sandwich update, as prior to being contacted, I had absolutely no idea that the actor had any local connection at all. It is not often that the local area gets used as the location for a film; we have had Thamesmead and the old Bexley College tower (now demolished, and replaced by a housing estate) used as locations for the cult E4 TV show “Misfits”, but to my knowledge the last time the area was used for a major feature film was back in September 1970 to April 1971, when Stanley Kubrick used Tavy Bridge area of Thamesmead as the main location for much of his film “A Clockwork Orange”. Since then things have been quiet. The only exception to this was back in the 18th of March 2014 - 3rd of May 2014, when the producers of a film called “London Road”, which used locations in Lower Belvedere, Thamesmead and Nuxley Road, Upper Belvedere as locations for the film musical based on the 2006 Ipswich prostitute murders. “London Road” used verbatim testimony from residents to show how they came together to rebuild their world after five women were killed in the Suffolk town in 2006. It is based on the award-winning stage production at the National Theatre. The film starred actress Olivia Colman (who I have seen on stage playing “Minka”, the psychopathic Polish secretary in the excellent and very underrated WWII set BBC Radio 4 sitcom “Hut 33” - some years before she became famous). in 2018 Olivia Colman won the Academy Award for Best Actress for her starring role as Queen Anne in the film "The Favourite". Her earlier role in the locally shot movie "London Road" generally went rather unnoticed. When promoting "London Road" back in 2015, Olivia Colman said of the film: “It’s actually about a group of people who heal themselves. I think people have a preconception that the musical is about death and murder but that’s not what it is about. It’s about a community who have got the world’s press looking at them and decide to make themselves better. Learning the verbatim script — including all the “ums” and “ers” of conversation — was much harder than a normal one. But having been fearful of it and close to tears at times, I'd say it was one of the most enjoyable and fulfilling jobs I've ever had. It also means the words audiences hear are what people genuinely said and were not “twisted”. These are real people, with no filter, being terribly honest”. She also had to sing in the film, which was not something that she had done before: “I used to sing at school. I can hold a tune, but I’m not under any impression I’m a proper singer. It was really scary, but lovely. It’s a fascinating story that most of us remember from the news.” Olivia Colman said it was a weird project compared with “shoot-em-up” movies or rom-coms, but added: “I think film-lovers will love this film. It is absolutely original.” The photo above shows Oliva Colman looking through the serving hatch from the main hall and into the kitchen in All Saint’s Church Hall in Nuxley Road, Upper Belvedere. Slightly behind her, dressed in purple is Anita Dobson; out of shot is the co - star of the film, Tom Hardy. You can watch a review of "London Road" by the BBC's Mark Kermode by clicking here. Contact me in confidence by Email at hugh.neal@gmail.com.

Following the observations and photograph published last week, courtesy of reader Damion, I received the photo shown above, and the text below from retired professional photographer Richard, who writes:- "Interesting to read your article about the Thames seals. They have been a feature in Thamesmead for some years and usually haul themselves out onto the mud flats in front of the (now disused) power station water outlet opposite the old golf course. They can be seen elsewhere along the river, (they especially like to fish at the Crossness outfall), but they do seem to prefer that one piece of mud and can be seen regularly at low tide during the Autumn and Winter months. The Common, or Harbour Seals appear first and are joined later in the year by Grey Seals. Incidentally, if anyone does spot a seal or any other marine mammal, they should report in on the Thames Marine Mammal Survey. The link is here - https://sites.zsl.org/inthethames/ The attached picture (shown above - click on it for a larger view) is one I took a year or so ago".

The Bookstore Cafe, run by The Exchange at the old Carnegie Library in Walnut Tree Road in Erith have announced their festive Christmas menu. In the upper of the two images above, you can see staff putting up Christmas decorations in the cafe, which is rated as the number one eaterie in the local area by TripAdviser. The Bookstore Cafe is run by cafe manager Laura Bell, and menus are devised by Head Chef Louisa Budds, who trained with the Michelin-star chef Marcus Wareing. The Bookstore Cafe is a not-for-profit part of The Exchange, so any proceeds made go back into the Old Library and its community offer. Every pound you spend does a good deed. The announcement reads:- "From Friday the 15th of November, we will be serving a taste of Christmas! Including: Starters of hot smoked salmon, chicken liver and brandy parfait, and winter spiced squash soup; Main courses of roast turkey or beef, or a mushroom pithivier served with roasted potatoes, wilted chestnut greens and honey-glazed parsnips and carrots. Desserts include chocolate and orange torte, pear and ginger pudding and a tasty cheese section. The cost for a three-course Christmas dinner is £25 per person;  or book with a glass of bubbles on arrival for £30 per person. This menu will be available from 15 November for Friday lunchtimes, and Friday and Saturday evenings. From the 1st December it will be available for Sunday lunches. If you are interested in booking, please contact us here with numbers and preferred date, and let us know of any dietary requirements/allergies. Please note, for every booking we will ask for a £10 per head deposit".

Following my slightly tongue in cheek comments last week about local resident Jermaine Kerr, otherwise known as The Dartford Raver. It has come to my attention that the lad is actually not from Dartford after all - he's an Erith resident. Since he promoted his rather woeful YouTube channel several weeks ago by writing "YouTube Dartford Raver" all over local bus stops and other public areas, the marker pen graffiti has now been removed in some locations by the sub contractor company that maintains the stops. I sincerely hope that Kerr does not re - vandalise the bus stops, as I am sure it would get him into serious trouble. I gather from someone that knows him that he's a nice lad, just a bit on the naive side. Advertising yourself by illegal graffiti is a mug's game.

Jonathan Batten, member of the  Erith Think Tank (photo from a recent meeting above - click on it for a larger view) is not a happy man right now - and with good reason. The Think Tank, who's mission includes improving community engagement, extended an olive branch to the Council when they were invited to speak at a Think Tank meeting in October. This meeting was a success, and the hope was that this could continue. However, he feels that the warm words spoken at that meeting have yet to translate in positive action. Jonathan stated to me that his views are his own, and not necessarily those of the other members of the  Erith Think Tank, to whome he has written the below to seek their views. Jonathan writes: :- "I was disappointed to find out via Twitter, after the fact, that Erith's regeneration was on the Agenda and discussed at the Public Cabinet meeting on Tuesday evening (12th Nov), coincidentally at the same time as our meeting. I was further disappointed that despite exchanging emails with Cllr Louie French the day before about there being further communication between the Council and the Think Tank, AND with Cllr's Joe Ferreira and Nicola Taylor on the same day (!), none of them thought to mention that this was being discussed. Despite the warms words supporting good engagement, the Think Tank was not at the fore-front of their minds when the Council's Erith regeneration plans were seeking approval from elected members. I have written to all of the above Cllr's to express my disappointment, and urge better communication going forward. I have no doubt that Think Tank members would have wished to attend and ask questions. Cllr French's response, in short, is that we should follow the Council more closely on social media. The content of the statements from the Council and responses from Cllrs was most illuminating, and the document being discussed even more so. I feel I now know more about the immediate future for Erith's regeneration than I learnt from the two hours of Bexley Council presenting to the Think Tank at our meeting in October and all my research to date. Watching back through some of the responses in the footage from the Council presentation, there is much obfuscation, whereas here we have the direction of travel in black and white, ultimately ending in 6000 new homes and 2000 new jobs (over the 30 years of the Growth Strategy). To paraphrase the meeting and document: Progress the redevelopment of 70 Pier Rd (old Bank chambers - they have already engaged architects and will be seeking planning permission and appointing contractors of the £4.2 million pound project - we discover now that this will be 'redeveloped into offices and residential units, whilst at the same time ensuring the asset is protected' - quite how this can work needs serious examination.) Open a community Kitchen at 66/68 Pier Rd (partnership between Bexley and GCDA, a Greenwich based co-operative, funded by the Mayors 'Good Growth' fund, which will include a 'family friendly cafe, provision for a professional kitchen for hire, and cooking sessions for local families'. The Council feels there is room for two publicly funded cafe's in Erith - what do you think? A less than informative 'consultation' on this happened in the Spring - but nothing visual or written was presented; indeed the stand appeared to be just handing out food samples.) Negotiate and purchase a lease for 28-40 Pier Rd (empty space above Farm-foods - refurbish space as an office, to be sub-let.) Progress the feasibility and concept design work for the Erith links program and submit a bid to TfL for 'Liveable Neighbourhood' funding. (This is a significant project for which the Council are bidding for funds, that would see the 'movement' of traffic, cyclists and pedestrians dramatically remodelled in the town centre, and thereby improve the high street, air quality and congestion through Erith. The work along Pier Rd reflects the Council thrust to make this the central street in Erith's town centre. They have not been successful in previous attempts to secure this money. The bid is going in on the 29/11/19.) Develop proposals for the redevelopment of the sites in Erith's 'western gateway' ('Core site' within Walnut Tree Road, Bexley Road and Erith High street - inc more housing, shop frontages to Bexley Road and Erith High street. The towers will stay and are in good condition, but will be built around. The former Town Hall, Running Horses pub and postoffice corner will also remain. See here for a 2012 scheme. Some of this will change due to the potential re-modelling of the traffic flow, but Erith Bath's is the first step on this redevelopment, and the direction of travel is likely to be the same). Explore a potential partnership with Orbit housing who are the major landowner in the area. (See above point - further detail to be brought forward at Cabinet meeting for approval in New Year - v.soon then!) Continue to acquire properties in the Pier Rd area. (Properties are being quietly bought by the Council at market value - 'to date, one significant freehold interest, and five long leasehold interests' - this will form the new high-street, and pedestrians will enter Erith from the station, down this road, and ending at the Pier.) 'Options' for the opening up of the end of Avenue Road. What's clear from the above is that there is already a secret Masterplan for Erith, and the Council are pushing towards that end at pace, whilst not being forthcoming with Erith's residents, nor doing enough to seek their views.  Several Councillors spoke, including Louie French and Cllr Read (Erith resident and who also attended the meeting in September) in support of this moving forward. Nicola Taylor read a statement, as one of Erith's Councillors; whilst it is commendable that Cllr Taylor argued for more affordable and social housing and that 'regeneration shouldn't become gentrification', the partisan party political framing of the statement was met with a frosty partisan party political response from leader of the Council, Teresa O'Neill, which did little to change anyone's mind. It was also disappointing that none of the actual content of the document being considered was challenged. The whole document was presented, and waived through in around 12 minutes. In short, one has to question whether the Council and Cllr's mean what they say when they talk about good community engagement, and whether the quality of the scrutiny at these meetings is serving Erith well. 

The Maggot Sandwich is brought to you this week courtesy of my Raspberry Pi 4B - as shown in the photograph above. The small, cheap computer, primarily designed for education is the size of  a credit card. I use it as a secondary computer, and a backup to my main Apple iMac, which is my workhorse desktop computer. Unfortunately my Mac decided to start playing up on Friday evening, and at the time of writing, I am not sure exactly what the problem is; bearing in mind my long background in IT, it is most definitely a case of "Physician, heal thyself" - though a trip to the Apple store at Bluewater looks like it will probably be on the cards at some point. Apple kit is not really self repairable. I suspect that the problem is centred around the Bluetooth keyboard, but time will tell. *Update* - the problems with the Mac were down to a failure in the Bluetooth keyboard - it was constantly sending false signals to the computer, causing the very strange behaviour I experienced. According to a couple of Apple online forums, this kind of failure is a known issue with the older type of Apple Bluetooth keyboards. You live and learn.

Now for the weekly local safety and security updates from Bexley Borough Neighbourhood Watch Association. Firstly the update from Barnehurst ward:- "Good news first, Barnehurst Ward have had no Incidents of vehicle crime however there have been two recent burglary's. The first occurred in Merewood Road at 03.55am on 12/11/2019. Entry was gained via the front door which was not double locked. Very slight tool marks were found on the door frame. Victim woke after hearing noise and disturbed the burglar who fled the scene taking with him a handbag. This bag was later recovered but contents missing. No one was seen, this may be due to a nearby footpath that was probably the escape route / The second burglary was also on the 12/11/2019 between 05.00pm – 6.45pm in Downbank Avenue, not too far away from Merewood Road. This was an empty property so it's believed nothing has been taken. The front door was found to be forced open by a neighbour who in turn alerted Police / Residents of Midfield Road have now received Smart Water kits. We will be making a start on Eastleigh Road very soon. Next door is a social media platform which we now use on a regular basis, please can you encourage neighbour to sign up. The next community contact session is on Tuesday 19th November 2019 at 11.00am in Barnehurst Golf Club. We look forward to seeing you". Belvedere ward:-"There was a report of a burglary at Dowling House in Laymarsh Close last week. A resident of the sheltered accommodation in the street reported that at some point between October/ November, his flat had been accessed and jewellery stolen. The investigation into this is ongoing at this stage. The team are still receiving calls and reports of anti-social behaviour taking place around the Samson Court end of Ruskin Road. Over the last week we have carried out several patrols of the location in an effort to curb this behaviour. From these patrols, PC Smith has had reason to stop/search 5 persons in the residents car parking area, resulting in 4 cannabis seizures with warnings given and one person issued a £90 fine. PC Holmes also completed a search in St. Augustines Road having stopped a female smoking cannabis in her car – this also resulted in a warning given. There was another burglary on the ward, in Elmbourne Drive. This is said to have happened in the late afternoon at dusk. Residents reported returning home to find their patio doors to the rear of the property had had glass smashed and entry was gained by this means. Strangely, nothing appears to have been taken from the property. PC Holmes and PCSO Worrall are visiting Belvedere Junior school this week to speak to each year group on a range of topics. Our next street a week is taking place on Monday 18th at 5pm in Bunkers Hill". Bexleyheath ward:- "Wednesday 6/11/19 Theft from Motor Vehicle 1915 – 2215 whilst in Goals Bexleyheath; side window on car has been smashed and sports bag and contents stolen. Wednesday 6/11/19 1000 Burglary Mayplace Road East entry gained through front door, deadlock not activated. Unknown which items stolen at time of reporting. Thursday 7/11/19 1700 Criminal Damage Cineworld Bexleyheath – eggs thrown at window. Thursday 7/11/19 1720 Criminal Damage Cineworld Bexleyheath – eggs thrown at window again same group of youths. Friday 8/11/19 1230 Theft of Handbag whilst trying on shoes in Harris Bexleyheath Broadway. Friday 8/11/19 1900 Theft of a youths mobile phone by other youths in Martens Grove Park".  Crayford ward:- "I am really sorry to say that we have had three burglaries this week in Crayford. On Friday 8th November between 07.00-17.45 a rear window was smashed to a property in Barnes Cray Road and a laptop was stolen.  A bank card was stolen during a burglary in Stephen Road between 10.00 on Thursday 7th November and 17.50 on Friday 8th November, the front door was found open but the rear patio door had been smashed off its runners. A significant amount of tools were stolen from a property in Iron Mill Place undergoing renovations between Friday 8th November and Monday 11th November. Entry was made by prising open an aluminium window at the rear of the property. Items stolen included, a Triton Breaker in a black case, Magnusson levels, three in a black case, Makita 9” grinder, Stanley Fatman bag containing selection of drills, Rubi 4” Tile grinder and spare blade, Makita site radio, Challenge Chop Saw and Topps Tiles tile cutter. There has also been an attempted break in to a garage at the rear of homes in Glebelands between Friday 8th and Tuesday 12th November, the padlock was broken off and the handle damaged but no entry gained. Tyres were slashed on a grey Seat Ateca parked outside Crosby House between 20.00 on Friday 8th November and 09.00 on Saturday 9th November. Youths have been shoplifting food items from Greggs, they are all white males aged between 13-16 years. A football bag and Sat Nav were stolen from a white Ford Transit whilst parked at Hall Place between 05.20-13.00 on Saturday 9th November. Criminal damage was caused to a white BMW one series whilst parked in Watling Street between 18.20 on the Saturday 9th November and 14.00 on Sunday 10th November, the window was smashed and a dent was caused to the door frame, no entry gained to the vehicle. A catalytic convertor was stolen from a blue Toyota Auris Hybrid whilst parked at Hall Place on Monday 11th November between 9.30 and 11.30, the metal plate covering the catalytic convertor was bent down and a number of bolts and screws were found under the vehicle. A Landrover, registration WV53HFH was stolen off the driveway of a property in Mayplace Road East on Monday 11th November between 06.00-15.00. Between Thursday 7th and Tuesday 12th November a black Renault Clio was damaged whilst parked at Mulberry Court, Bourne Industrial Park, Bourne Road, the lock was smashed and the seal around the window was removed, it is not known if anything was stolen. Our next community contact session will be at Crayford Library on Tuesday 19th November between 14.00-15.00. The Crayford Winter Festival will be held at Waterside Gardens on Saturday 30th November, there will lots going on and is expected to be a lovely community event, Christmas lights will be switched on for Crayford by local children". Erith ward:- "We have been hit with theft from M/V again we will be out today posting motor crime prevention leaflets to areas being targeted. Residential burglary on Wednesday 7/11/2019 Larner Road - By unknown suspect/s forcing entry to house via rear doors smashing windows of doors to gain entry. An untidy search has been conducted in each room at property Shoplift  of greater than £200 Monday 5/11/2019 Matalan Erith High Street. Attempted Residential Burglary Thursday 8/11/2019 Pembroke Road - Suspect has smashed the rear garden door but has not entered the property. Theft from Motor Vehicle Sunday 10/11/2019 Saltford Close. Theft from Motor Vehicle Sunday 10/11/2019 Winifred Road,  Theft from Motor Vehicle Monday 11/11/2019 James Watt Way, Theft from Motor Vehicle Tuesday 12/11/2019 Erith High Street". Northumberland Heath ward:- "The team have been very busy over the last week, we have visited one of the blocks in Becton Place due to complaints from residents about cannabis being smoked inside properties and in the stairwells. The team delivered letters to every resident in the block introducing the team and giving our contact details, also in the letter reminding residents that it is a breach of their tenancy. During this visit the team stopped a group of males who are known for ASB and drug offences, 2 of the males were searched and the group were given strong words of advice about entering or hanging around the block. The team are still investigating a large scale of ASB and theft from BNN Mini Mart on Brook Street, we are gradually identifying the the males of whom we have very good CCTV images off. Unfortunately we have had a burglary on Belmont Road this week, we believe this may have been a targeted burglary for Asian Gold. The team attended the location and made door to door enquiries and search for CCTV. We also had a theft of a catalytic converter from a vehicle on Bedonwell Road. Please note that if you would like to fill in the Bexley Crime Survey, we have supplied a batch of these to the library on Mill Road, the form will take about 5 mins and gives you a chance to have your say on crime on the borough, we have supplied a box for your completed forms to be posted into.  Our next community contact session is on Wednesday 27th November at 3pm in the Mill Road Library, please do come along and meet a member of the team and discuss any issues or concerns you have, or just pop in and say hello".

Slade Green and Northend ward:- "A burglary took place between 3pm and 8.30pm in Alexandra Road on Friday 08/11. Entry was made via a smashed window in the back door. Tablets, jewellery and cash were taken. CCTV at the back of the property shows at least 2 suspects leaving the back of the property as the victim came home. Unfortunately the footage has no clear image of the suspects. The team are aware of a recent increase in ASB and criminal damage around Budgens on Rainbow Road and in the bin sheds on the estate. CCTV images of all those involved are being looked at to take the necessary action against anyone identified. Patrols are to be made as and when we can. PCSO Mark attended the Remembrance Sunday Service at St Augustines on Sunday 10/11 where around 200 people came to pay their respects and lay tributes at the memorial. Our next Community Contact Session is on Thursday 21/11/2019 from 11am in the Forest Road café". Thamesmead East ward:- "Attempted burglary - Rushdene Road Sat 9/11/19 between 8:20 pm – 8:40pm. Victim's partner heard a noise from outside when they opened the front door house keys which were previously stolen were on the floor of the porch. No entry was gained as the locks had been change 2 weeks ago. (Victim had previously reported having items stolen from a vehicle 2 weeks ago, one of the items stolen were house keys). Theft of motor vehicle - Landridge Road between Tuesday 5/11/19 5pm – 4am Wednesday 6/11/19. Victim vehicle was parked securely outside home address. When victim woke up in the morning to leave for work the vehicle was missing and there was evidence of broken glass on the ground. Theft from motor vehicle - Please be vigilant – Wolvercote Road. Member of public (MOP) was sitting in a vehicle talking to friends when MOP stated seeing 2 males on the pavement ahead trying the door handle of the vehicle in front. Suspects walked towards MOP vehicle trying the door, when they realised there were people inside. Officers attended carrying out an area search but unfortunately there was no trace of suspects. Rushdene Road Sat 9/11/19 between 7am – 10am Sun 11/11/19 Victim called police to report the theft of both number plates whilst it was parked in the street, only realised by victim after driving to church. Sydney Road Sat 9/11/19 between 12:30pm – 10:45 am Sun 11/11/19 Victim reported both front and rear number plates removed from vehicle, it looked like they had been snapped off". West Heath ward:- "Unfortunately we have had two residential burglaries over the last week. On Thursday November 7th at 6.30pm the occupants of a property in Hollingbourne Avenue were upstairs when they heard a noise coming from downstairs. Entry was gained via the rear of the property and it appears that the door was insecure. Thankfully the suspect was disturbed and made off. On Monday November 11th between 5.43pm and 7.43pm a front door in Lodge Hill was forced, an untidy search of the property was conducted and a set of keys and a car key were stolen. The door to the property was not double locked and the suspect was able to pop the lock on the door in order to gain entry. One theft on number plates from a vehicle parked in Hillsgrove Road between 0200 – 1130am on Sunday November 10th. Another arrest by officers this week for a male wanted for failure to appear at court. The team also assisted at the Remembrance day Parade in Crayford on Sunday November 11th".

Bearing in mind we are shortly to undergo yet another general election, I thought that this week I would feature historic Pathe News footage of the 1965 local bye election. Many of the locations featured in the old film will no doubt be familiar to local residents, but the cars and the fashions mark it out as 1965, as does the practice of the various candidates knocking on people's front doors - something I don't think happens much, if at all nowadays.